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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10671
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Posted - 2014.04.30 22:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Me & many others find the vertical progression too steep for a healthy game, & would prefer if SP provided players with more sidegrades instead of pure upgrades; this is why many of us support dropsuit tiercide Ideally there should only be militia & standard tier for dropsuits (though with slots & stat of advanced & prototype). You start with access to militia, standard is unlocked at level 1 of a basic frame skill, & you then unlock the specialization skill (like commando or sentinel skill) once you reach level 3 of that basic frame skill, & the specialization skill unlocks a standard specialized dropsuit. Seriously, this game would still have more vertical progression than tolerable for most FPS players with just the weapon, equipment, & module tiers; skill bonuses also. The lack of tiers is something CCP got right with vehicles.
now to address concerns regarding tiercide
[Risk VS Rewards] If dropsuits came in only militia & standard, risk vs reward would could still be very much alive & well. The price gap between basic/standard & complex/prototype weapons, equipment, & modules would maintain risk vs reward.
[AUR sales] Some are concerned that without high tier AUR suis for CCP to sell, it would hurt CCP & the game. Weapons, equipment, & modules would still have tiers to monetize
Early access to specializations would still exist; someone who never skilled into Minmatar heavy frame would have the option of buying a standard AUR Minmatar commando as a shortcut.
Boosters would still exist for CCP to sell.
Visual ustomizations: this is how most of the successful free-to-play games make their money.
[BPOs] There is concern that in a tiercided Dust that BPOs would be way too good & useful since they don't have a ton of tiers above them; this only applies to dropsuit BPOs. BPOs only come in militia & standard tier anyway, the real differences in power & price will come from weapons equipment & modules; a standard or militia BPO dropsuit with militia BPO modules won't be competative against a standard dropsuit with complex/prototype modules equipment, & weapons.
If BPOs do become a problem, there are options: Make the standard BPOs have militia slot layouts
Make the BPOs permanent skins that can be applied to a suit
[Basic frame skills] If standard is unlocked at level 1, & specializations are unlocked at level 3, level 4 & 5 would serve no purpose (since there would be no prototype). Solution is to give basic frame skill a bonus that not only effects the basic frame, but all specializations within that frame size as well; for example, a Caldari commando would have both the Caldari heavy bonus in addition to the Caldari commando bonus. This would make having 5 levels of a basic frame skill justified. I have a thread on possible basic frame bonuses here.
["But it won't fix NPE"] Many have claimed that tiercide won't do anything to help with NPE because experienced players working together will always beat disorganized inexperienced players. While tiercide won't fix everything, it certainly would make it a whole lot better. Imagine 2 scenarios. In the first scenario, a group of starter fit newbs are fighting against an organized group of vets in prototype dropsuits. In the second scenario the starter fit newbs are fighting against an organized group of vets using standard dropsuits. In both cases the vets have the advantages, but in the second scenario the newbs will at least have a chance & maybe score a few kills, & have fun despite losing. The first scenario would only kill the fun for newbs (remember "fun"? the reason people play games?), & they will immediately quit, which only serves to stifle the player population of Dust.
Imagine if other shooters used the "organized vets will win anyway" as an excuse to add overwhelmingly superior items that new players can't access; that would lead to a complete disaster, & their NPE would be as bad as Dust's. Just because organized vets already have an advantage does not mean its ok to keep giving them more advantages, in fact it means the exact opposite; you should not give them more advantages, yet that's exactly what Dust does.
["But its an MMO, MMO have a lot of tiers"] Most MMOs are PVE-centric, meaning you never have to fight another player with higher tier items unless you want to; either by a duel, or by voluntarily entering a PVP area. Dust on the other hand is only PVP, & will remain mainly focused on PVP even when PVE comes. This "but MMO" argument is BS.
Instead of tiers, the game should have more specializations for players to unlock. Perhaps even specializations on top of existing specializations. Example: Once you get an assault skill level 3, you can unlock a new skill to use a new specialization with no grenade, less slots, & less speed than an assault in exchange for a bonus to range & zoom, as well as inheriting the basic medium & assault bonuses (call it the marksmen).
Logistics level 3 can access to a new specialization with less slots but has built-in E-war equipment. Would inherit basic medium & logistics bonuses in addition to bonuses to the E-war equipment (call it the engineer).
Scouts at level 3 could unlock a new specialization with only one equipment slot, less modules, but 2 sidearms (or 3 sidearms & no light weapon); in addition to inheriting the basic light & scout bonuses, they could have a bonus to sidearm damage & racial knife fitting (predator or assassin).
Sentinel at level 3 could unlock a new specialization with less slots, penalty (or restriction) to fitting light weapons, but in exchange inherit the basic heavy & sentinel bonuses in addition to racial heavy weapon damage (sentry).
These are just examples, and just more regular specializations would also be fine.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10671
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Posted - 2014.04.30 22:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10672
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:sounds like CoD to me. Not sure if trolling, or just blind.
COD doesn't have modules, equipment, or weapons that come in 3-4 tiers (5 if you count officer), or even the two tiers I want for dropsuits (miliia and standard). COD doesn't have various branching sidegrade specializations.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10673
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:weapon tiercide and adding in weapon rigging would help too. Just sayin....... Weapon rigging = yes, much please. However, IMO weapon tiers can stay- it allows you to choose how much of your fitting resources to allocate to pure offense vs utility/defense in the form of modules. Exactly, the PG/CPU tradeoff makes the tiers for weapons, equipment, and modules fair in my opinion, so they should keep tiers.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10676
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:I'll leave this here and go pop some popcorn.
teamwork > gear. every day of the week. If that's the case, you shouldn't have a problem with everyone being on a slightly more equal footing with gear since gear wasn't that important.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10676
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:I'm still not convinced..... why would I ever want to run Proto if my "side ways skills" let me do everything and more on a suit of lesser value? I'm not sure you understand, there wouldn't be proto at all. Just like vehicles there would only be basic militia, basic standard, and standard specialist. Eequipment, modules, and weapons would stay the same. I'm not sure what you mean "side ways skills" either.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10681
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Posted - 2014.05.01 01:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Shion Typhon wrote:Cotsy wrote:Hey Kage,
You realize that drop suit tiericide will further increase the disparity that CCP should be trying to fix.
You have some good opinions about many other things, but a tiericide system will only further the problem and does little to address matchmaking.
You can't just dismiss it without providing some reasoning. Your statement in isolation makes no sense. Yeeeeaaaah, how dos less tiers increase the disparity? I also don't think his statement makes sense.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10710
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Posted - 2014.05.01 19:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dauth Jenkins wrote:But then my suit would look the same as everyone elses.... (that is literally my only gripe with tiercide). Hopefully cosmetic customization will come in.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10711
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Posted - 2014.05.01 23:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Glantix Karmic-Snow wrote:Ok, I can tell my argument is failing. You guys have successfully countered almost all of my points. But there is one point I stand by, and it is that reason alone that I believe we should ditch the concept of tiercide. That feeling of progression is what keeps players in this game. That feeling when you unlock a new weapon and you feel like you can take on the world. That feeling of when you level a suit up from level 2 to level 3, and all of a sudden your options and power increase dramatically. That feeling know you can now equip more modules, and that you are now closer to the vets who's shadows have been cast upon you for so long. That feeling is what keeps this game interesting and alive. You cannot tell me that getting a 5% bonus to something decent is more exciting than getting that 5% bonus as well as 1 or 2 more modules, maybe even an equipment. Everyone knows it is pretty boring when you unlock an advanced module, because it is only providing a small benefit and your suit isn't really changing. But it is that feeling of advancement, that sensation of going from standard to advanced, and advanced to prototype, that really make the game not only interesting, but unique. I know most of my previous arguments didn't make much sense, in fact looking back they don't make much sense to me either. But if you are going to deny that tiercide is going to take a lot of the fun out of this game, then you should go watch paint dry or something, because to people like you anything that should be entertaining too. Thank you for your time, and thanks for an interesting argument, but this is my closing point. Sincerely, Glanitx / Snow I am only proposing tiercide for dropsuits. Not modules, not for weapons, and not for equipment; you will still have that feeling of progression for those. While I understand the feeling of progression is addicting, progression can be far too much for a healthy game. Excessive dropsuit tiers consistently kill more fun in actual gameplay than it provides because it contributes to boring stale one-sided predictable battles.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10711
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Posted - 2014.05.02 01:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Seeing how anti-tiercide threads are on the front page again, I feel I should bump this.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10711
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Posted - 2014.05.02 01:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:["It removes variety and content"] Tiers are not true variety and content, they're just better versions of the same thing, fulfilling the same roles.
["But I find the feeling of progression fun"] I am only proposing tiercide for dropsuits. Not modules, not for weapons, and not for equipment; you will still have that feeling of progression for those. While I understand the feeling of progression is addicting, progression can be far too much for a healthy game. Excessive dropsuit tiers consistently kill more fun in actual gameplay than it provides because it contributes to boring stale one-sided predictable battles. Dropsuits would still be horizontal dropsuit progression; unlocking more options like specializations that aren't upgrades, but sidegrades. Made use of the 2nd post
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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